Creating with Jon Simo: Bursting Bubbles and Building Brands
In this episode of the Content Creator Society podcast, we dive into the realities of being a content creator, pulling back the curtain on the often glamorized life of making and sharing content online. Our guest, Jon Simo, shares his journey from working in the traditional ad industry to embracing the one-man-band approach to content creation. We discuss the challenges of managing business logistics as an individual creator, from navigating payment terms with big companies to the impact of illness on workflow. Jon also highlights the importance of standing out in a competitive field and the value of long-term partnerships with brands over one-off projects. Additionally, we explore the role of mental health in the creative process and the benefits of simple strategies like taking walks for idea generation. Finally, we touch on the potential of AI tools in content creation and the need for creators to differentiate themselves in a rapidly evolving industry. Join us for an insightful conversation that sheds light on the business side of content creation and the strategies that can help creators thrive.
Show Notes: Content Creator Society Season 2, Episode 3
Hosts: Bonar Bulger David Ross
Guest: Jon Simo, Content Creator, Maker and Entrepreneur.
Duration: 48:09
Episode Summary:
In this episode, Bonar Bulger is joined by co-host David Ross and guest Jon Simo to delve into the realities of being a content creator. They discuss the changing landscape of the industry, the challenges of payment terms, and strategies for ensuring financial stability. John shares his experience with growing his audience on Instagram and the importance of standing out in a sea of competition.
Topics Discussed:
Introduction of Guests:
Bonar introduces David Ross, his co-host, and John Simo, a maker and content creator.
David Ross shares his background as a director, producer, and editor who's navigating the business aspect of content creation.
Jon Simo provides an overview of his journey as a content creator and his approach to making unique content.
The State of the Business:
Jon describes the content creation industry as a slowly bursting bubble, with budgets shrinking and competition increasing.
Bonar emphasizes the importance of long-term partnerships with brands and the potential for content creators to offer consulting services.
The discussion touches on the need for content creators to differentiate themselves and the benefits of securing multi-month or multi-year contracts.
Payment Challenges:
Jon and Bonar discuss the difficulties of dealing with delayed payments, especially from large corporations.
They share practical tips for managing cash flow, such as demanding a deposit upfront and considering a loan to bridge payment gaps.
The conversation highlights the importance of treating every project professionally, regardless of size, to prepare for larger opportunities.
Mental Health and Being a Content Creator:
John talks about the mental health aspect of content creation and the importance of being open about the struggles that come with it.
The discussion acknowledges the need for support structures for content creators and the impact of mental health on business success.
Software/Tool Recommendation:
Jon recommends going for a walk as a simple yet effective tool for unlocking creativity and improving mental well-being.
He also mentions Topaz Video AI as a valuable software tool for enhancing video quality and solving common footage issues.
Transcript
Hello everybody and welcome to the Content Creator Society episode number two, season number two. Today on the show we have what I would describe as our proper first inaugural show, because to my left is my co-host. Well, let me allow him to introduce himself in the way that he feels is appropriate.
Well, I am David Ross, and I am someone who works across the area that we work in from Bonar.
He is in the next sea container over.
That's right.
Yeah, but you have a nicer one because you have two containers stuck together. I only have this little, poor little one container.
That's right, we took two containers, cut two holes in them, and now there's a doorway, a pass through.
Amazing, so-
That's all you need to know about me.
What did you say, director, producer, content creator?
That's right, yeah, director, producer these days, and doing a lot of editing. And also trying to figure out the business, as we all are.
Perfect, and our guest today is Jon Simo. Jon, welcome to the container.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thanks for coming.
It's wonderful in here.
The commute must have been arduous.
Yeah, I live here in Hamilton, for those who don't know.
That's awesome. So Jon, give people a 30,000 foot overview of who you are and what you do.
Yeah, I mean, for lack of a better term, I'm a content creator, even though I do not like that term. But I guess I'm just a maker at heart. I've been a maker since I was a child, making visuals and products and spaces. And I just love to bring things from my imagination into reality. That's sort of my purpose here on this planet, and learning a thing or two while I do it. So I've been working with brands for over 20 years now. I've been making commercials, documentaries, feature films, music videos, sort of the entire gamut of the creative industry. I've sort of touched the waters in some capacity. And so I just like to make stuff. And now I focus on short form content, specifically branded. That's what pays the bills. And it also keeps my ADHD brain really happy, cuz the turnaround is very quick.
So let me dig into this first little part, because I struggle with the term influencer. I hate that term. It seems like it doesn't do the whole job, the whole career justice. And so I always go down this road of content creator, because I felt like that was always a much more sort of all-encompassing, more proper term. I like this idea of maker, just kind of interesting I hadn't thought about before. But thinking about who we are and what we do, it starts from years, ten years ago, whatever it was, it was like, it's not a real job to what it is today. And I think what we're gonna dig into today is the business side of things more so than the artistic side of things, but that's a good starting point. What do you call yourself? Dave, what do you call yourself?
I go with filmmaker, because it sets me up for the most targeted version of what I want people to understand quickly. So I don't make a lot of films, but it's the type of video I'm creating that I want people to understand.
It's interesting. It's like a cinematographer, filmmaker.
I mean, every time I went with filmmaker, I would get a tiny little stab in the heart when they would respond with, what films have I seen of yours?
Yeah.
It's like, you might have seen a couple obscure films on Amazon Prime or iTunes, but no, it's never that. They always assume like Hollywood. And then if you say cinematographer, they're like, what is that?
Yeah, and so I use cinematographer in the writing. When I write to people, I'm writing about people that I work with, I use cinematographer because I feel that's elevated. But isn't it interesting that all of this is in the effort to frame yourself as something in the effort for money to sell yourself? Because this is not what we're really doing when we're deciding what we're gonna call ourselves and our industry. It's about framing yourself so the party on the other end of that conversation visualizes you in that different bracket automatically. I find that saying filmmaker helped people understand that the types of commercials I wanted to make, what they were going to look and feel like at the end, the kind of things I was probably better at making. Then just like shooting a bunch of coverage documentary style and maybe cutting that together. Even corporate videos, I try to make those mini movies if I'm doing that type of work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Jon, let's start then, what I wanted to do is start with your audience. Because I think that's where a lot of this content creator society stems from. Originally when I first conceived it, the idea was to talk to people who had a significant audience. And my first thinking was, hey, we're gonna talk about how do you build an audience? Now that's grown a lot over the last, my thinking's changed a lot on this sort of subject, but I wanna start with just talking about your audience and how you got from point A to I think you're 100,000 on Instagram at the very least. And of course there's other platforms which I'm not as familiar with. And then from there I think I wanna go into this discussion just about the business side of it because there's recently some posts on thread, there's threads that we were going back and forth over a little bit. And then some other people jumped in which I thought was interesting and that's gonna be of interest to the people listening to this in particular. How do you actually make money at this job given the climate that we're in today, which might not be as advantageous as it was I think last year and even the year before that, because the nature of our jobs are changing. So let's start there. Where did you start as you really got into this and how did you get to sort of where you are today? I realize that's a large question, so try to condense it as best you can.
Yeah, I mean, I was working in the traditional ad industry for quite some time. I worked at a production company where we did traditional ad work, skewing more digital but still did film and television as well. And I just ended up growing to really have disdain for it over time. Working in the traditional system and the printing and the prodding and the amount of committee overlooking of a project from start to finish was really taxing and it felt like it was sometimes the complete absence of creativity when you have 11 people all chiming in who actually don't have that much of a creative mindset and they don't let you do your work. So over the last, I'd say, seven to ten years, I think I've just been slowly pivoting away from the traditional system and towards a system that I like much more because I have a lot more control, which is just sort of the one man band type of creation system. And there's both good and bad that comes with that because on one hand, you have to do everything. On the other, you get to have full control and if you fuck the project up, it's entirely your own fault. You can't blame anyone. So I think I've really been focusing on short form internet content for the last five, six years now and it was a slow growth. I was focusing really on Instagram and I went from 2,000 to 4,000 to 8,000. Every time you hit that milestone of 10,000, 20,000, you get that big dopamine release.
Yeah, totally.
But what I've learned over time is that it doesn't really matter in any way. I think it matters more maybe to your peers who aren't quite there yet, who are also still in that dopamine seeking mentality. When they're like, if I just get 100,000, that'll be the silver bullet that changes my career.
Yeah.
When that's not the case. I grew from 25,000 to 100,000 in less than a couple months after a few videos.
Wow.
Sort of went viral. And I thought this is it. I'm gonna be getting the next level of clients. I'm gonna be adding zero to the end of budgets, things like that. But honestly, nothing changed.
Yeah.
Not a single thing changed. I got offered a few more products from Chinese companies. But asides from that, you still have to be putting in the work. And there is so much competition these days from kids that are hungrier, younger, and have a lot more time than you.
That's interesting. Being the senior of the group, I see I'm getting out of the content creation side of it. In fact, this is really good for me because I get a chance to do it again. But there are a lot of people who are younger and faster. And this sounds terrible, but I don't pay as much attention to the other platforms because it just has become burdensome. It's a burden to me to kind of do it at this point. And as opposed to doing it myself, I've gone the other route, which is now building a team around me and getting them to do those things. Because I realized over 15 years of building this company, I have a better handle on the business side of things. I'm better at the business side of things, I think. And now I'm farming it out. Cuz at one level I'm gaining control because I'm controlling who's doing what. On another level I'm losing control because I'm not doing the art necessarily. And so it feels to me that you and I are in sort of these very different stages of life, business life, if you will. Because I do remember a time when I was doing very much in your, it's hard. You have to do all yourself, promotion, sales, you have to HR yourself. Taxes, everything comes down to you and your shoulders. And that can be emotionally devastating because it's really hard, not one thing is not gonna push you over the edge. But a combination of all those things and you don't have an outlet becomes difficult. And so really tough to do. I'm always amazed at you. I see the work that you do and I'm always like, that's really good. The stuff that you did over here with the BMW, the lighting and all that stuff was like, and the DeLorean thing you recently posted.
So good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So good on you. And it's not easy to kind of pull it all together. But I let that go. So as I grew, I decided to not do the art as much and just control the business. Which I still consider art, but in a completely different way, kind of idea.
Yeah, I mean, all our individual creators are essentially media companies in our own right. Like we do handle a production, distribution, editing, finances, the whole gamut. And why that's really dangerous and why I am trying to not continue this lifestyle is because if you leave the picture, the whole totem crumbles.
Yeah, yeah.
Like for example, I got sick a couple weeks ago. I was sick for about ten days and work grinded to a halt. Which meant that I missed deadlines, which meant that I missed paychecks coming in, which meant that everything crumbled. And because I had no support systems to help me, I couldn't farm it out, right?
Yeah.
It's a dangerous way to live where you are the most important piece of the chain. And if you fall, then everything crumbles. That's not sustainable.
It's not, no.
But totally, I've had the same thing where you get sick, you have to go to a wedding. And that wedding is now kind of costing you about $4,000 to $5,000 because you can't do something that day or something like that. And it's just like, it's a terrible way to live. Nobody else lives that way.
It's not sustainable. And I think that content creators, and part of the content creator society in my mind was always that there isn't support structures for these people. And it's also very young people who haven't had the experience. So they're just trying things out. Now they've got lots of energy and they don't have a lot of responsibilities. But when you have kids looking at you, those responsibilities, your time now, it goes like that. Your responsibilities go up and it becomes a lot harder. So how do we create a system? And maybe this is a little bit, I'm trying to solve a lot of problems with one little show and one little platform, but there needs to be, it's almost like a union, support structures for people. Because I will also argue that a lot of content creators, makers, whatever you want to call yourselves, are by nature creative people and by nature more susceptible to larger swings of depression and over the top kind of energy. There's a lot of room for support structures to exist, but I don't know that there's any that I know of that are in the works.
Well, here it is, it's in the works.
I've heard the government mention gig economy lately and I was like, that's me.
I'm a gig economy. It's difficult. So you've got an audience, you've built it, you always are reaching for that next level. You never reach the next level because that's an illusion. There is no next level, it is what it is. So let's take that aside for a second. Let's talk about the business side of things. So that post I mentioned at the beginning of this, it was a post that you mentioned is like how, you tell me, it was about the 70 or the 90 day payment or 60 day payment thing.
Yeah, it was essentially a post just about asking other creators how they handle payment terms that can sort of be all over the place. Because a lot of times when you're an individual creator like we talked about earlier, you sort of live and die by being paid on time. And typically it's not just you getting paid and taking that money, you're paying for studio rentals and equipment rentals and any crew that you've hired. And the ripple effect of not being paid on time can be horrendous and can really ruin your reputation. And so unless you have consistent work that fills in the gap of not getting paid for upwards of two to three months, that can become extremely challenging.
Two or three months, yeah, 90 days, 60 days, that is challenging. So how do you deal with that in your day to day? What do you do? Is it just emails to people following up? Is there any sort of tactics that you've run across that work for you?
It really depends on the size of the company I find. If it's like a Fortune 500 company, there's almost nothing you can do. They have their systems, they really don't care about you.
Yeah, you said it right.
You just gotta go through the process. Those are the ones that take the longest in my opinion, which you think they would have the manpower and finances to just pay you on time, maybe even immediately.
Yeah.
What I try to do is demand basically a 50% deposit to at least cover expenses. Because the worst possible thing is when you're putting out your own money and then you don't get that back as well for months. So now you're in the negative.
Yeah, so on the flip side of that, or on my side, so I run an agency where we're seven people, so we're not mid-sized. I don't even know where we'd fall in that category, but big enough. And we work with content creators all the time, and people who are directors and photographers and all that kind of fun stuff. And so we're the middle man where we will have our terms, about two years ago, I was in this, we would be paying maybe 60 days. And it wasn't because we didn't wanna, hey, we were just very cash flow oriented. And our customers would be, to your point, bigger customers, cuz we work with some of the bigger companies. But of course, their pay structures sometimes are not as fluid as what we need. And I would be that guy on the other end that you've probably cursed once or twice, why is this guy not paying? And the MO for us was always like, well, squeaky wheel gets the oil. When the content creator or someone we're working with, we can't pay them right away. Now, what we're doing now, and as in the last six months, we've completely, it was brought to my attention that we need to have a much stronger payment structure, because if you are paying content creators almost immediately, A, the work is better. B, if you ask them to do something a little bit extra, another edit or whatever it is, you're more than likely gonna get it. And then any time that there's another project where you're trying to mine that network of people, that reputation goes so far. So that's a huge thing. I would argue-
I mean, it's the reason why productivity is so much higher in Europe than it is in North America, because they treat their workforce with respect. And they give them so many months of vacation a year, and you get childcare. There's just so many facets that make you think that the company cares about you. And you're right, when the company inherently feels like they don't give a shit about you, you're not gonna wanna go above and beyond. You're just gonna be like, all right, I'm just gonna go through the paces, I'm gonna give you my money, this is not a good experience overall.
The 50% is key, we do 75% now. And it doesn't always happen. Bigger companies, you ever have a project that you get where it's very fast moving, and they need to get you into their system, but it takes two weeks, but your project needs to start tomorrow? That's when I can't get the 50% up front. And inevitably that turns into, I won't mention the name, but there's one where we were, number one, huge global corporation, huge. This close to con lawyers. And even for them, the amount of money was, I'm sure, insignificant. Which I think exacerbated the problem, because the dollar value was not large enough for anybody to even really be like, I don't even know if they had systems to kind of process a smaller check.
I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of these employees at these big companies don't inherently have an emotional connection to the work that they're doing. Even if they completely fuck up, they're still going to get paid.
Yeah.
Right? And so they just go through the motions of getting us paid, but really they don't feel anything when we say, where's that money? We need the money to continue this project, right? Where for a lot of creators, we are so intrinsically tied to what we do and our business that that money can literally be the difference between life and death. They're putting food on the table, right?
Yeah, caring is probably, it's one of the things I, when I talk to very young filmmakers, I'm like, the first thing you have to do to become good at what you're doing is just care about your work. It's like, this is what's going to bring you to your next level, it's like just a general, I want this to be better, or to actually self critique or that kind of thing. But also for people working in any industry, and when I'm working with clients, exactly like you said, when I notice that I'm the only person who cares about this project all of a sudden, you feel really alone, and you feel kind of abandoned, and you feel like you're underpaid. And you're doing someone else's work for them, and that always sucks.
Yeah, you don't want that. So some practical tips on my point of view, from the business point of view is, and maybe these won't all work for everybody. But number one, go into all this stuff understanding you're probably not going to get paid by everybody all the time, and that just is what it is. You just have to try to budget for it, and I know that's not a really great tip, but it's just understand that the world is not as perfect as we want it to be. And whether you are a larger company like our company, or a solo person doing it, it's the same across the board. It happens everywhere. You have to be number two, absolutely crystal clear. People don't want to be clear about being paid. They'll sort of skirt around the issue. They feel embarrassed, or that it's going to sour the relationship if you're asking that person, hey, you haven't paid me, where's my money? And you don't have to be mean about it, but you have to learn to be very up front with people and direct. And I think there's a lot of content creators out there who are not necessarily business people first. They're creative and artists first, and that idea to ask somebody for money. And I know a few people in my circles who just don't, and their bills go months, months, and months go by, and they haven't even invoiced. So you've got to be direct.
Something else you might want to consider, depending on the state of your business or where you're at in your life, etc., is getting a loan or getting a certain amount of funding. A loan's the easiest thing, BDC or anybody else for that matter. And again, everyone's got their own opinion on this. But you would have, let's say, $100,000. You would get a loan, $50,000. You don't touch that money. That money is just there to bridge the gap. So you're never worried, because you need to concentrate on the next project, not be looking in your rear view mirror saying, is this guy paying me? Look, most of these people will pay. Very rarely do I run across someone who doesn't pay. It's the time it takes to pay. If you can get yourself a float, and just don't touch it, but that float is gonna be there to bridge the gap. And yes, there's interest associated with that, but this is now gonna be the cost of doing business. If that helps you focus on your next project and moving forward, then do that. If you're at that point, I think getting a loan for some content creators or people who are just starting out can actually put you in a really tricky position, so that's up to everyone to make their own decision. But even in our business, that's kind of how we operate, where we have a line, a credit where, cuz our money, and we have, our projects are $100,000, $200,000 projects, and we need to float $50,000, $60,000 because we have to pay people, so we need that kind of buffer. So that's the, I think on the practical side, what I would recommend for the most part.
Yeah, I mean, one thing I'm trying to do as well is to diversify income streams. So if there are these 60, 90 day periods happening, there are smaller pay periods that I'm more in control of that I can sort of turn up or turn down. So if I wanna maybe have a store where I can sell digital goods, that's immediate money. Or if I wanna do consulting or any type of teaching and mentoring, that's also immediate money. So having those platforms sort of set up and ready to go when you have your down periods that you can crank up is something that I'm currently focusing on and that I think could be beneficial to a lot of creators.
The teaching and mentoring I think is really, really key. I think you would be, you seem to me to be the kind of person, personality, who would be able to pull that off. And I think there's, it's difficult to do well, but I think that there's definitely a space.
You've posted a lot of stuff lately about what it's like to be a content creator and pulling the curtain back about what it's like psychologically and logistically and what some of the challenges are. And I don't see a lot of people doing that. A lot of people want to look like they're just constantly successful. And achieving all of their goals and dreams. Why did you decide to do that and have you had a good response to that?
I decided to sort of pull the curtain back because being a content creator myself, I'm so sick of seeing this mirage that's been presented to all of us.
Yeah.
Everyone is traveling the world and working on their edits at sunset in their full window apartments.
With their amazing Peter McKinnon style desks that cost $30,000.
Yeah.
Like no shade to Peter, it's a beautiful desk. But everyone's trying to emulate that.
We plan on having him on the show, don't screw it up right now.
It's just, none of it is real. It's the most edited version of someone's life that you are then trying to emulate. Which is just a fool's errand.
Yeah.
And so I want to pull back the curtain on that a little bit and just showcase that being a creator is really hard and it's really lonely. And a lot of the time you're spent sitting in front of a computer that's not interacting with you, and a lot of the conversations you're having and engagements you're having are very one-sided. You essentially put your all into making something. You put it out there and that product gets feedback, right? Or gets comments and things like that. But it's never really a conversation. It's always just sort of little hits of dopamine.
Yeah.
If you feed into that, you get addicted to it over time.
So just showcasing that none of this is real, whatever you're feeling is valid. And even the top creators have horrible, horrible days and depression and anxiety and issues. And that there's a lot of dark side, there's a lot of dark sides to being a creator, and that's okay. It's inherently part of the game.
It's analogous to in football, and I'm not a sports guy. There was a big sport thing going on a couple days ago, I hear, a couple red teams. They both had red shirts, it was very confusing. But you came to this realization that they're having concussions and they're having brain injuries and they were living shorter lives and everything else like that. And it took so long for this realization that this sport, I mean, it seems so apparent, but for whatever reason, it was never talked about. Because culturally, that's football, that's what we do. Here, same kind of thing. I think culturally, you're going to find in a few years like this, just sea of devastation of realizing that just how toxic this business can be, how wonderful it can be too. I don't want to get so down and everything else, because there's so many amazing things about it. And so many amazing people and so much great art that comes out of it. But just like any art, there is a lot of anguish and problems, mental problems, that need to be addressed and need to be spoken about. So taking that tact would be really interesting, because I think you're going to get, you'd hook into so many people who are, well, one moment posting their Mercedes, and the next moment going to be over in your world going like, my God, I need some support. And that's, I will support that. You open that up, I'll do, I'll shout it from the rooftop.
Heck yeah. I asked everyone here recently, I think I did it on video, I have it somewhere. What's the biggest hurdle, sort of stopping you from taking whatever you do to the next level or where you want to go, and for everyone, it was a mental game. Like that was the thing, at the end of the day, that was the root cause. We had to discuss a little more, because first someone will say, well, I need $100,000, like you said.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's the first thing that comes to mind. But then when you get to the root of why isn't this working, or what is the wall you keep running up against? It's inside you, sometimes it's like, for most people, one of the things I see is like not believing in themselves enough to trust themselves to get that loan. To say, okay, I'm actually doing this, for real. I've been doing it already for 20 years, but now I should trust myself to take out a loan. Cuz I'm a business, to actually say, I'm a business.
I'm a business person.
I'm a business person, yeah.
You know, that's, yeah, you are, you manifest it. You are, it's how you define business. And because this world has not been a traditional business, I don't have my suit and tie and everything else. You know, they don't feel like they have the authority to say they're a business person.
And you reject it in the beginning cuz you're a creative. And so creatives, business is just a problem.
You are a business, and all of everybody, even when you start this and you're doing yourself on whatever level, you are a business person. Because you wouldn't even get to step one without having some sense of like opening up a Instagram account. Sure, in my mind, that's like a step in a business. It's not written down, it's a business plan, step one, open this, you are. So you're right, I agree with you 100%.
Yeah, I mean, I've read studies about the fact that the internal dialogue of your own thought is about two years behind how you actually presented reality. And you're very stuck in the past when it comes to believing in yourself, having confidence, and all the work you've put in in that two year period. It's hard for it to actually catch up to your inner dialogue, which can be very cruel sometimes. So a lot of people can have imposter syndrome and think they're not good enough, cuz their brain is literally living in the past when they probably did feel like they had legitimate imposter syndrome.
Absolutely.
Well, you can all do it, and I believe in everybody. I'm gonna, we're at 32 minutes, actually, well, I start recording before that, but I always wanna keep these relatively short. So, couple final thoughts. One of the things I'm gonna talk about in just a second, and I'll probably edit bits and pieces of this. But I always talk about what's your favorite tool to edit or to, creative tool, so I would think it's nice to get someone's opinion. Cuz I have this list of people who have given me all sorts of great ideas. Basically, I'm stealing ideas. Don't have any of my own, so I need to know what I can use to edit stuff or color stuff or whatever. But final thoughts, Dave, what are you thinking?
I wanna know what the state of the business is. And I think that's a nebulous question for our audience to ask themselves. Also for you, Jon, maybe as a final question, how do you describe the state of your business? Cuz you're in content creation as if you're not making Super Bowl commercials, necessarily, you're doing a lot of Instagram stuff. So where's that at right now?
I would say the state of the business feels like it's a bubble, but the bubble's bursting at 1,000 frames per second. So it's happening very slowly.
Such a good quote.
Because from 2012 to 2018, it was just money was going up and up and up, and budgets were just skyrocketing. I was making the most money I ever have. And ever since COVID, it's been an uphill battle to regain that momentum. Budgets are down, competition is up, creative is skewed all over the place. So you really have to make sure that you find your niche and are doing something that is totally unique in you compared to your peers. Because there's infinite competition, budgets are going down, and workload is going up. So the most important thing for combating this bubble is just being unique.
I think from my perspective on the business side of it, what I would be, I'm vehemently opposed to partnering with content creators on a one-off basis. And I think that was what was going on three, four, five years ago. You'd partner with someone, one post, X number of likes, whatever it was, and move on. I would argue a better approach now should be a longer term partnership, which is better for the content creator and better for the brand. The content creator then becomes more familiar with the brand, the language, the style, all those things. The whole idea is to match your audience with another brand that you intrinsically are in line with. You don't wanna go to a brand that you're not because that doesn't work. But look for six month partnerships and present yourself as not a content creator that is a one-off. What you do, I work with brands over the long period, six months, three months, whatever it happens to be. And that, I think, is something I don't see a lot of. I see a lot of one-offs still to this day. And because most brands in marketing, or big brands at the very least, struggle with longer term campaigns. They're very either month to month focused or whatever it happens to be. But to differentiate yourself is I want to work with you for six months. And in doing so, maybe there's economies of scale. You might get a bit of a, we can work on negotiations on what about my cost. But that would be something where I would focus for the next few years. And that's where my business is, where I'm, and I still get pushback from companies because it's hard for them to conceive. Well, how do I do something for six months? And in my mind, I'm like, well, serious, it's episodic. It's whatever it happens to be, but that's where I would go.
Yeah, I think to any creators that are listening to this, if you've put in the work and worked with a company at least on one or two campaigns and you've proven yourself, now's the time to start pitching longer term contracts. Like I've been working with Insta360, for example, for years now. And I just signed a one year contract with them, which is gonna guarantee finances for 12 months in a row. And I'm much less interested in one-off projects. And I wanna have multi-month or multi-year contracts to build something with the brand and do cool stuff and guarantee finances that I don't have to worry about hunting for ex-mom and pop business to just pay the bills next month, right?
It's a win-win.
Yeah, and I think also, with all these companies, maybe there's an opportunity to be an advisor on another level. So you get us, and Insta360's not a great example for this because they have so many of these sorts of content creators. That's the business they're in, but you get some more legacy businesses that are automotive, right? I'm in automotive for the most part, but providing them with insights on how this world works. Because they're very interested in getting in front of a younger audience. But internally, they don't have the people to tell them the metrics and what works and what doesn't work. And if you had a longer term contract, part of that contract could be, not only will I be a content creator, I will almost be like an advisory board.
Yeah, and give that away for free.
Yeah, and say--
So then, because that's not what you do. We want to make stuff, that's what we're doing. Give away your consulting for free, and then hopefully that actually leads people to see your stuff, see more of your stuff.
I think that would be a huge value if I was an automotive person. Again, speaking from that perspective, because they have their agencies. The agencies that they have, though, are not young people either. And a lot of the ideas that they get pitched are all very, it's all the same. You see what's out there, it's always the same. So trying to find out how can you become that consultant for them, as well as that six month kind of content creator that works alongside them, huge amount of value right there. And that's another way, as you said, differentiate yourself. How do you make yourself different from the sea of people out there who are really quite good? God, there's so much, so good. So you have to think about what does that company need? You don't need just content, they need advice.
A residency.
Yeah, sure, content creator in residence, or whatever, six months, and they could roll through them, brilliant program, they should totally be doing that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think the business, though, is changing, but I also think that there's gonna be more structure in the long term. I think there's going to be more demand for actual lift on campaigns, measuring lift. So saying, look, how much did we sell because we did this? Or what's our brand recognition before this and after this? And I think that hasn't been part of the equation as much. So anybody who's a content creator, anybody who's sitting there pitching business, it's part of your deck, it's part of your pitch. There needs to be a pretty overt, like here's what you're gonna see as a result of this campaign.
I hear a lot of people talk about ROI and creative pitch meetings, but I think it'd be beneficial to think about what's this gonna do?
Yeah, people get caught up in the persona of the content creator often in those kinds of meetings, but that's part of the equation. But I still think this business is, it's so interesting because it's evolving, and it's still new. And what you're talking about is this bubble that's slowly exploding into 1,000 frames a second. It's fascinating to watch, and I think there's real opportunity here still. And if you can just have endurance and be the last person standing, it's not that bad, but really, there is still great opportunity out there. It's just, like anything, you have to keep at it and deal with the rejection. And it's a bit of a volume game there, but there's a lot out there still for everybody in this business, especially as new VR goggles and things like that, Apple Vision Pro and stuff like that come online. That's all of a sudden new opportunities that didn't exist. I mean, Meta 3, sure, but now it's more top of mind for the people. So a whole new era is unfolding before you. How do you take advantage of that?
I mean, when I talk about this bubble bursting, it's not like it's gonna burst and then that's it. It's because there's another bubble that is growing behind the scenes that's gonna overtake it. And that's the melding of the traditional ad world and sort of the hybrid influencer scene. They're gonna become one eventually, and it's happening slowly. But I think that everything's gonna sort of stabilize once they are a bit more melded, because right now you've got the hybrid influencer or just straight up influencer. They don't know how to talk to clients. They don't know how to do the business. And then you've got the trad art or the trad commercial world, and that's what they've been doing for decades now. So bringing that sort of business mentality and acumen into the sort of wild west of the creator sphere is gonna really help things. And to anyone who's starting out, I think that's one skill you can really put in the reps for, is no matter the project, treat it like it's a Fortune 500 Forbes company or something, right?
Absolutely.
Like even if you're doing a video for a friend, for whatever product, like send them pitch emails, give them an invoice, give them a work back schedule. Make this as real as possible so you put in the reps, so when you eventually do get the big company, you know the vernacular and the language and the cadence of speaking to a client.
Absolutely. What, sorry, go ahead.
Love that.
Yeah, we should put that on a t-shirt.
You've got a few t-shirts now.
Just this one? Yeah, all right, there's gonna be a rev share thing going on here somewhere.
1,000 FPS, I love that shirt.
I mean, this is also how I diversified, I made a hoodie for Lumix.
So cool.
It's amazing.
And it's gonna go on sale soon, it's my first physical product.
I was gonna ask about it, but I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say, I don't know, maybe I had to blur Lumix, I don't know.
It's gonna link in the show notes here.
Are you sponsored by Canon, is that why?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Although I do happen to like their cameras. You know why? 'Cause they have big buttons. Big buttons. And--
I'm with you.
I like buttons, that's why. Everything else had these stupid little dinky buttons that were hard for me to press. And those ones, click, click, click. And free financing for three years, so.
My gosh.
Yeah, yeah, so I took advantage of that way back in the day.
Okay, so wrapping up here, out of all the tools that you use, it could be photography, it could be mental wellness tools, it could be anything really. What would, if you had to pick one tool that you think is a great tool to use in the process of content development, content creation, making, if you will, what would it be?
Well, I could go down many different avenues with this, as I do use a ton of tools.
Yeah.
But I think it's gonna be something just very simple, and that's go for a walk. There's almost nothing that a walk cannot solve. If you are stifled or creatively out of juice, just go for a 20 minute walk. Don't fill it with a podcast or information, just let your mind wander, 'cause that's where ideas come from. And if you're already a creative person, you will always be creative. You just have to give your mind the ability to be creative, which is not being constantly stimulated. A walk can cure mental health issues, a walk can just make you feel better, it gets the blood flowing, it just gets some sunshine on your face. It's weird to call walking a tool, but in an epidemic of sitting being the new smoking, I think we could all use a bit more walking.
Yeah. Is that on the App Store, walking?
I think it's got a podcast.
Link in the show notes.
There actually is a sweet walk to Mount Doom app that I'm using.
That's sweet.
So it counts your steps.
Yeah, Mount Doom, really?
How far it would be to Mount Doom. I'm like 20% on the way to Mount Doom.
I love that. I read it somewhere in the news a couple days ago where there was a science, they had a picture of what the brain looked like, sort of a CAT scan kind of thing with reds and yellows and things like that, before just working for at your desk for two hours, three hours, whatever it is. And then this CAT scan 20 minutes after a 20 minute walk. There's all these nice blues and things like that, which I guess were equated to brain activity. So while you were sitting here working, your brain actually wasn't that active. But for those 20 minutes when you were walking, there was all this activity. I'll try to dig that image up and try to put it on there and see if I can track it down. But yeah, I would agree with that, I think. And it's not a tool, I think it's a strategy. But I think strategically, that's what you need. You need to have those at your disposal. And I think our business is one in which sometimes we feel like we don't have time because you've got to get the edit out. You've got to do this, you've got to do that. And walking, exercising, that kind of stuff is like, I don't have 20 minutes to do that right now.
Totally, and everyone thinks that gear is holding them back, kit's holding them back from creativity. And it's, it could just be a walk. I like that.
I mean, just to go to an actual creative tool that I've been using a lot as a side step, I've been using AI a ton.
Yeah.
And I'm using this app called Topaz Video AI on almost everything now. And it fixes shitty looking footage, it defeats compression, you can do a whole slew of stuff with it. So it's really like its own little subset of a Swiss Army knife for creators. And it's worth the subscription price for sure.
You know what we should do? We should do another show just with AI, which you use. 'Cause I use, we started this when we first came in about the AI I'm using to do these podcasts and how it's really helped me shortcut some of the more laborious tasks. And I have also been using like copy.ai for writing and you know, I have the new store. I've been sort of experimenting with the chat GPT store and know this little sort of chat bots and trying to figure out how to make them. But that would be a really interesting show just around content creation and AI.
Yeah, centered around problems. What problems can we solve with this?
And what problems do they not solve where there's ones I've run across where just at the end of the day it's cool, but it's actually more work. Even though it seems like it's less. But when I take a step back, the work that's coming out's not as good as it used to be, even though it might have taken me an extra 15, 20 minutes to do. It's this shortcut where it's not, I can, the writing isn't as good or whatever it is, you know, those kinds of things. I'd love to do that. We should do, and I think everybody would be like super, and everybody wants to know what the shortcut is.
Yeah.
And everyone thinks AI, and AI is fucking transformational for sure.
Let's get your best copy guy versus the computer and we'll see who can do best.
I got a guy.
Ten minutes.
Coleman, he was on it, he was on it as season one, Coleman Molinar. He's out in BC, copywriter, but just like, he, he, he took a Westphalia van with his wife and drove down into the US and got like 30,000 followers on this sort of van life kind of thing and whatever. So, yeah, really good dude, but copywriter. It'd be really interesting to get him on to say.
I really want him to win though, I don't want to.
Coleman, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Coleman, 100%. Listen man, if you take a look, go on LinkedIn, go on any of these platforms and you will see the word embarked on a journey or a version of that everywhere. Because whatever chat GPT has been trained on is clearly a lot of embarked on a journey.
It's the hero's journey.
Yeah, man, go, go write, you say, write something in an adventurous tone or you know, any tone and you'll, but you'll see it, you know, ever since LinkedIn added that feature, you'll see it embarked on a journey. And I'm always like, do I not like that because they're using AI or is AI helping them get a thought that was already in their head out and sure it's couched in this, this sort of computerized kind of thing. But it's still, they're getting stuff out, so is that a good, I'm still divided on if it's a good thing because I think it allows people to get ideas out that maybe they wouldn't have before.
I'm loving all the ghosts in the machine that I'm discovering with AI.
Yeah.
Like I just did this one project that needed narration.
Yeah.
And so I did the narration, like I recorded my own voice.
Yeah.
To get the proper cadence and timing and then change that into a female robotic British voice.
Yeah.
But during every point of silence there were meows.
It's the weirdest thing, I'll have to play it for you guys after.
You want to just press the stop record button on that, on the left hand side?
Yeah.
'Cause what will happen is, should be.
It's blinking.
Yeah, I just want to, is it?
Yeah, it's stopped.
Okay, cool.
Interesting.
No, maybe it's a card, but what happens if that's, if the battery dies on it?
Mm-hmm.
Mid-flight? Yeah, it doesn't record. Everything's gone.
Canon.
Really?
I don't know, yeah.
It doesn't finalize. You don't even get a corrupted file, it's just gone?
I think you get a corrupted file, I've never, so just I've always been super paranoid about that.
Yeah.
It's like.
That's not cool.
I mean, 90% of the time I'm not doing this. I'm like with it and I've got lots of battery and I'm just doing whatever. But yeah, I mean.
I mean, I have, like my batteries die while shooting constantly. (laughs)
Okay, so maybe I'm wrong, I just, I mean.
Well, I don't have, yeah, I've used that camera, but I don't know if we.
I'm gonna find out, I'm gonna double check that, 'cause now I'm all paranoid about it.
Yeah, yeah.
This one.
Brutal.
I love this camera.
Yeah, it's.
All right guys, this is amazing. So I'm gonna just give it a little bit of a, I'm gonna do, I always do the outros after the fact. But for the most part, where can people find you online, Dave?
They can find me at davemakesmovies.com.
And anything you wanna pitch, anything you wanna promote other than that?
My friend Jesse, who I work for most of the time. Jesse Driftwood, subscribe to his channel. Yeah.
Help me out. Jon, anything you got, do you wanna pitch, where can people find you?
Yeah, it's just Jon Simo across the internet, not to be confused with Jon Cena, it's Simo, S-I-M-O. I also have a teaching platform called Simo Students in which I teach the things that I know to students and upcoming creators. So you can find that at simostudents.com. And yeah, just I love talking to other creators, no matter where you're at on your journey. So I'd love if you send me a message and ask a question or just say, what's up?
That's awesome. I am Bonar Bulger. This has been the Content Creators Society, episode number two, season number two. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time.
Good night and good luck.